Mosura TDS up

**frankiefu** · 21st Jun 2012, 17:01

Hi!

I experienced an increase in GH after adding Mosura TDS UP. The package stated it won't increase GH.

To verify my doubts, i measured GH of 2 pails (1 new water 1 aged water).

GH of new water:3, aged water: 2

After adding Mosura TDS UP to TDS of 140 - 150,
GH are, 5 (new water), 4 (aged water)

I don't know if any bros here experience this. Now my shrimps tank TDS is 124. Scared of adding TDS up in case it raise my tank water GH..

Any advice on increasing TDS using other methods? Thanks in advance.

**Xmant** · 21st Jun 2012, 17:41

Do you know that TDS = gH + kH?

**ZackZhou** · 21st Jun 2012, 19:58

For me, my mosura Tds up does not increase my gh. I don't know why yours will.

**Navanod** · 21st Jun 2012, 20:22

Xmant bro,

No offence, I feel you are partially right. GH is made up of mostly inorganic divalent metal ions, mainly calcium (which makes up KH) and magnesium.
However, TDS is more than that. TDS = GH + all other dissolved inorganic and organic substances, including other inorganic salts such as potassium, sodium, chlorides and sulfates, as well as organic matters like tannins (from our soil and ketapang leaves) and waste products.

Thus, TDS cannot be GH + KH, since KH already forms part of GH.
This is why "water softening" ion exchange filters can reduce GH but does not reduce TDS because it is simply substituting sodium ions for calcium and magnesium.

frankiefu bro,

Mosura TDS up is likely to be made up of a mix of inorganic ions and some may react with tap water and produce ions that can be detected by the GH test kits. I think the claim on the TDS Up is because before this product was launched, people were trying to use Mosura Mineral Plus to increase their TDS, but got alarmingly high GH at the same time. TDS Up is relatively low on GH.
If I'm not mistaken, each dGH adds about 17.848 ppm to TDS (yes, the ppm of GH can be directly translated into TDS). So with GH of 5, about 90ppm of your 140-150 TDS ppm is GH.

GH 4-5 is still quite good for a shrimp tank. I suggest you continue with the current dose instead of trying to increase the TDS. With tap water, the TDS will gradually go up as waste and soil will slowly add organic matters into the water column. Very soon, you'll be trying to LOWER the TDS!

I'm quite curious though. Why did your aged water's GH decreased?

**Xmant** · 22nd Jun 2012, 13:40

Originally Posted by Navanod

Xmant bro,

No offence, I feel you are partially right. GH is made up of mostly inorganic divalent metal ions, mainly calcium (which makes up KH) and magnesium.
However, TDS is more than that. TDS = GH + all other dissolved inorganic and organic substances, including other inorganic salts such as potassium, sodium, chlorides and sulfates, as well as organic matters like tannins (from our soil and ketapang leaves) and waste products.

Thus, TDS cannot be GH + KH, since KH already forms part of GH.
This is why "water softening" ion exchange filters can reduce GH but does not reduce TDS because it is simply substituting sodium ions for calcium and magnesium.

Hi Bro Navanod, when I answered Bro frankiefu's thread at that time, I just wanted him to know the main relationship between TDS, gH and kH. For sure, there were many things needed to be included. However, we will not want to look at them into details as we don't have the means to measure them unless we got a laboratory to do it.

Btw, there are two types of water hardness: general hardness (GH) and carbonate hardness (KH). A third term commonly used is total hardness which is a combination of GH and KH. Therefore, your statement "since KH already forms part of GH" was not so correct either.

Based on my earlier equation.
TDS = gH + kH + others (non measurable at our means)

Let us just focus on the main parameters only; TDS, gH and kH.
If I am not wrong, TDS up is mainly made up of gH mineral salts only.
Therefore, if you add TDS up, we can conclude that it will result in the increase of gH in the tank water as Bro frankiefu had experienced. By right, his tank water pH should not have any changes.

TDS(increase) = gH(increase) + kH + others (non measurable at our means)

Btw, Bro Navanod, pls don't expect me to go into such details when I was answering my dear Bro frankiefu using my handphone. I even have to put on my glass to look at the small wordings at that time.

**Navanod** · 22nd Jun 2012, 14:40

Heh no worries, bro, I can tell it was fired off a phone. Again, no offence meant, it's just my geeky OCD.

Erm, my understanding of "Total hardness" is that it is just an alternate name for "General Hardness", so I'm confused now bro.

I also feel that the "others" can be measure via deduction of GH from TDS, although I believe you mean individual measurements of each type of salts, which is too costly to measure (I saw potassium test kits before...very costly).

So now we're back to square one?
Does TDS Up increase's GH? Or not?

Xmant: Yes
Zack: No
Nav: Partial

**Matt** · 22nd Jun 2012, 18:10

Originally Posted by ZackZhou

For me, my mosura Tds up does not increase my gh. I don't know why yours will.

Same same... I have dosed TDS up before and it was quite a huge amount too, GH remains unchanged.

**ZackZhou** · 22nd Jun 2012, 21:21

Xmant: Yes
Zack: No
Nav: Partial
Matt: No

hahaha.. interesting.
i just did a agaration test using a simple bottle. added 2 spoons of tds up inside, the tds meter cannot measure the tds anymore (out of chart). while gh increase by 1 only. (negligible as the relationship between the increase of tds and gh is too far)

ps: i strongly believe that tds up does increase gh as well until one of my friend told me that it does not and i bought one to try. it really does not increase gh. However, i dont find it a must item to have as well as i strongly believe that the additional tds increase DOES NOT aid in breeding of shrimp (ie. some minerals that the shrimp does not need) NO visual / sustainable results is shown after tds up was added. Probably another reason why it is not commonly used by pro breeders as well.

**newlife** · 22nd Jun 2012, 22:11

My case...similar...
No gH increase when I dose TDS up

**Xmant** · 23rd Jun 2012, 00:50

Why not use Mosura Mineral Plus?
It helps to increase gH and TDS respectively.

Btw, I don't use Mosura TDS up. I only use Mosura Mineral Plus to achieve my TDS.

**newlife** · 23rd Jun 2012, 02:06

Originally Posted by Xmant

Why not use Mosura Mineral Plus?
It helps to increase gH and TDS respectively.

Btw, I don't use Mosura TDS up. I only use Mosura Mineral Plus to achieve my TDS.

What if the required gH is sufficient???

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Matt** · 23rd Jun 2012, 09:31

IMO, Mineral Plus/Ultra is good for those using water with low GH & TDS, While TDS UP is meant for those whose water is already on ideal GH level but lacking much on TDS.

**avex30** · 23rd Jun 2012, 09:57

If you interested to do expensive experiment haha.

Tds up in tapwater will somehow up gh I don't why.
Tds up in distill or to water insignificant reading on gh.

How this happen I've 2 type of aged water call me siao or whatever.
Aged tapwater and aged RO water I just perfer to aged them. And have prep the water to almost tank parameter for water change purpose. That was what I discover..... Maybe only happen to me I don't know.

**frankiefu** · 23rd Jun 2012, 20:58

Originally Posted by avex30

If you interested to do expensive experiment haha.

Tds up in tapwater will somehow up gh I don't why.
Tds up in distill or to water insignificant reading on gh.

How this happen I've 2 type of aged water call me siao or whatever.
Aged tapwater and aged RO water I just perfer to aged them. And have prep the water to almost tank parameter for water change purpose. That was what I discover..... Maybe only happen to me I don't know.

For my experiment was tapwater and aged water. I don't know hot many bros here did such experiments..

I finally got my TDS at around 176, GH: 6. After that, i put in powerhouse basic. GH drop to 5. Till now, GH still at 5. Still considering whether if there's need to add pro-peat granules to soften water.