Survey of PH Controller/Denitrinators in the market

[joachimsim]

Hi I am looking for a Ph controller and possibly a Denitrinator.

1) Could I have possible reviews/Cost effetiveness and cheapest place to get those? Bioplast, Eheim, Sera, Dennerele.....?
( I also need one for with a range suitable for Marine USe> )

2) Denitrinators....I have seen very expensive ones to Dynamax ones..care to gimme prices..places to buy them as well.

Thanks !
Joachim

[loupgarou]

PH controller: denerlle and sera.

you get get online for other brands which are cheaper, but then you may have to deal with the voltage difference.

ideally I'd like an isfet sensor based ph controller but its way too expensive.

for denitrators, don't waste your time with it.
if you have that much a problem with it, fill your tank with water lettuce, hyacinth and duckweed.

more effective and cheaper. denitrator is more likely to kill your fish.
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[joachimsim]

how come denitrinator can kill my fish?

I am contemplating using it for Marine

No so much fast growing plants in Marine

[loupgarou]

a) bad water isn't caused just by an excess of nitrate. a denitrator just removes nitrate.

b) if you're using a sulphur denitrator, you must get the flowrate correct or you will end up producing nitrites or hydrogen sulphide, both of which are toxic.

Clementi polyart and Aquamart sells sulphur denitrators 300$ +

I would think making an auto water changer would be better. but since you're doing marine...heh.

[Kasdeyae]

Alrighty, for those who made comments that denitrators kill fish, question for you. Do you OWN a denitrator? If not on what did you based that assumption from? Popular reading ? Just amaze me sometimes.

Well, you see I got a personality flaw as some people put it. I never believe what I read until I try it or unless it is published in a scientific journal.

I own a Sulphur denitrator and I have used it successfully on a freshwater tank. About all this dangers of denitrator if you ask me its just lots of urban aquarium myth on those who do not own one and just rely on theory. Afraid to try thats all. Purchase one and try for yourself.

Use the the take on my Sulphur denitrator experience.

1. My nitrate level drop from 25mg/L (or 25ppm) to ZERO. YES. In exactly 50 hrs. For those ultra pedentic technies I used Tetra's Nitrate kit. Salifert Kit also showed up as Zero. Yup. Is there an increased in Nitrite level during the break in period? Not detected during monitering. I was almost wondering if my anubias nana and Java fern could survive the nitrate-free water and apparently they do. In fact the Java fern still sent out little leaflets on their leave tips!

2. The pain in the *** part is to find a pump outflow socket to bring water to the Sulphur denitrator. I used the one by Sulphur denitrator by Deltec, which makes use of airline hoses. The pump I used is a Ehiem 300, I took a 12/16mm eheim hose cut a small section, took an airline and filled this small piece of 12/16mm with silcone with the airhose sticking through it. Voila, fix up the hose problem.

3. The Sulphur Denitrator is better than those denitrators that use anerobic bacteria that are fed a carbon source (deniballs) is the fact that they are highly tolerent of high flow rate. Up to 15L/Hr. Can't use this kind of flow rate on a carbon fed denitrator. With a flowrate of 15L/hr you aren't gonna worry much about building hydrogen sulphide. However you have to do this gradually. Works like this, at start 1 drop/ sec, monitor your outflow 48hr later from your denitrator if 0ppm NO3 let it run for 2 days and then adjust to 4 drops/sec. After 2 days at 4 drops/sec and N03 remains at zero you continue increasing it. So on and so forth. Make sure you UVc is switched off if you are using one during the commisioning period of the denitrator.

4. How I connect it ? Ok. Intake is fed via a pump and the outflow goes directly onto the driplate of topmounted three tier stackable trickler box (The wet-dry filter). That way if there is any nitrite leak it has to pass through the media (lava rocks, Seachem Matrix, Biohome, Ehiem Substrate pro) before passing into your tank. Its gonna provide additional food for your aerobic bacteria if that's the case. That is how I do mine.

For those freshwater aquarist who do the 'got-nitrate-change-water' regime. Let me try you, if your nitrate level is around 12mg/L or 25mg/L even if you change your water at best immediately after you change the nitrate levels will drop and will stay that way for 3 days, at worst the following day and nitrate level jump up again. So ? Gonna change water ever 3 days or next day? I don't think so. Even if you don't mind wasting money on water, the amount of money spent of water conditioners will blow up your maintence bill. So the line about water change cheaper is not totally true.

How much I pay for my Deltec Sulphur denitrator? SG$340. Includes Sulphur beads. Some stores in Singapore sell the deltec Sulphur denitrator for $355+$70 for sulphur beads.

About using water lettuce, hyacinth and duckweed. I remember reading a paper from a scientific journal that these plants preferentially take up Ammonia to Nitrate because it has to convert Nitrate to Ammonia and this is energetically less efficient. So,not gonna help much at least for these plants. And even in a full planted tank you ain't never gonna get zero PPM Nitrate.

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Me: 'I will take the whole tank' *points to lifestock*
Other customer: *Mutter & make face* ........
Me: 'You dunno I buy entire stock meh ? I dun wan their fishy friends to be lonely!' Nyuk! Nyuk!

[PeterGwee]

Why do you think your plants are still growing when the NO3 you measured is zero? Check the kit....crap? Spend $100+ on a Hach low range NO3 kit and tell me what is your NO3 again. I'll be amazed if it reads zero.

It isn't impossible to hit zero NO3 with a planted tank? Are you sure? Ask folks with BGA in their tanks...classic bottoming out of NO3.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[bclee]

My opinion...

1. De-nitrator works. Proper setting up is neccessary.

2. Hobbyist do experience problem with nitrites from denitrator that has not been properly set up (Chris(Loupgarou), I know you are speaking from experience... :P ).

3. Denitrators is good for marine/reef tank or fish only freshwater tank. In planted tank, no...
Personally, I add about 20-30ppm of NO3 weekly just to keep my plants going. Kasdeyae, Anubius and Java ferns are slow plants that do no show N deficiency quickly. New leaves will still grow, the defiency usually show up in older leaves. Older leaves turn yellow faster and sheds itself faster without NO3. Fast plants, like Elatine triandra, will even die off at low or zero NO3... not mentioning algae problems that comes with lack of NO3.

BC

[vinz]

Reminder to all, that a confrontational tone does not help. Debate and discussions are welcomed, but not confrontation.

This is a forum for ppl to discuss and share their knowledge and experience. Different ppl read different things and have different experiences. All are welcomed to share them.

There will be times when ppl are wrong, but there is no need to "whack" them. If you feel someone's posting is in error, feel free to point it out, but don't be rude about it.

Thank you, all.

[loupgarou]

Kasdeyae, I've managed to kill 21 discus with a sulphur denitrator, thank you very much. not to mention hydrogen sulphide poisoning and NO2.

search these forums, my experience is documented.

I'll pose some questions.

a) as you know, a sulphur denitrator must have a relatively constant flow rate.

b) as time goes back, bacteria film and muck accumulating amongst the sulphur beads will caused the rate of flow to slow down. the muck will also biodegrade amongst the sulphur. so unless you intend to maintain it, my hypothesis is that it will start generating hydrogen sulphide.

c) a sulphur denitrator trades off nitrates for sulphates. assuming there is no water change, sulphates will reach a toxic level in your tank. can you find a sulphate test kit Anywhere? what about the other toxic substances in the tank? ie: accumulation of other waste byproducts.

d) so does a denitrator reduce the need for water changes, possibly on a lesser frequency, but it introduces its own set of hassles. if you're going to invest in equipment, looking around for a auto water changer, would be MUCH MUCH better for your fish health in the long run

[Kasdeyae]

With a denitrator it is gonna be brutal for your tank if one is thinking to setup and forget about it. If that is what one expects out of this equipment, your gonna be in trouble. If you’re getting NO2 with your sulphur denitrator and killing fish with it, it means you’re not maintaining the equipment properly. And like all equipment off course maintenance is required & I personally find the denitrator no less troublesome that your usual aquarium chores (cleaning filter, e.t.c).

Very simple maintenance procedures. A nitrite test once a week on a)Effluent b) Main tank. Daily – Come back after work while looking at your tank just check the outflow, just matter of adjusting the tap if you find flow to slow. No trouble at all. Less than 10 secs to adjust tap if need be. As long as I don’t see drops per/sec I don’t bother adjusting.

The sulphur denitrator is very forgiving compared to deniball denitrators. Once fully commissioned and you’re running it in L/hr the flow rate in my experience is tolerant of flow fluxes. I find between 5-10L/hr is no problem with nitrites. If you are still running it with drops/sec means you’re still breaking it in (commissioning) you’re more in a danger of nitrites.

I have been using my sulphur denitrator for 14months now. (End of May will be 15 months) I don’t see any muck on my beads. It helps if you buy the microfilter for the inlet. During the 1st day of breaking in Nitrites rose slightly when tested on effluent but main tank Nitrites 0. That’s ‘cos I run my outflow on a drip plate which tricker down a stack of boxes into a plenum. Safeguards I take using this equipment. A) Outflow on to drip tray and make sure water trickler down and not flowed over from one portion of a sump to another.

It is easy to assume that Hydrogen sulphide could be a cause of poisoning, But there’s no Hydrogen sulphide test kit at least in retail, so if any fish death occur can’t really say that’s the cause of it. If you want to measure sulphates you need access to an instrument know as a spectrophotometer and some reagents to do the barium sulfate turbidimetric test. The test works like this. Barium ions react with sulfate ions to produce insoluble barium sulfate. This is a a milky precipitate. The amount of cloudiness is proportional to the amount of sulfate present. This is measured spectrophotometrically because the milkiness will only allow a certain amount of light to pass through the.

As for trading off, The sulphur denitrator produces 1.1 mol of sulfates produced for 1 mol of nitrates reduced. As for amount of Sulphates in water, natural seawater has sulphates 2700 mg/l (2700ppm), pure seawater 850mg/L. For drinking Sulphates 250mg/L (250ppm) alters taste. I personally think it makes a better trade off for Nitrates before the next water change. Off course you can’t ignore biweekly water change cause of D.O.Cs (dissolved organic carbon) which have to be removed. The sulphur denitrator would be a good equipment to buy time to keep your nitrates under control till your next water change. That should be the main crux of how to use this equipment not as an end all for all your aquarium husbandry chores.

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Other Customer: "Wah yesterday I see still got a lot"
Shopkeeper: "That fellow just sapu all"

[PeterGwee]

A plant filter does the same thing of nitrate removal and is definitely cheaper and does not have any side effects. So much better in my opinion than spending a couple of hundreds and yet had to fuss over constant testing.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[loupgarou]

kas, hydrogen sulphide can be smelt. yes, its my fault for using sulphur flowers/flakes rather than beads also,

however everything about denitrators does not

a) increase convenience/reduce need for water changes.
b) toxicity of sulphates in freshwater fish is not documented.

I mean, if you have to test weekly with a nitrite/nitrate test kit, change water biweekly (is that twice a week or once every two weeks),


so you're better off with a plant refugium OR an automated water changer that changes water daily on schedule from the tap *along with a fert doser + anti chloramine doser*

if you're using a marine tank, maybe it makes sense for a skimmer and a denitrator to remove nitrate and DOC, but for a planted tank, it just doesn't make sense (over the other applicable solutions)

[joachimsim]

Thanks guys for the opinions on drawbacks/plus point of Denitrinators. Sulphate Denitrinators and the toxicity of sulphates is new to me.

However I do have a pondering question on Algae control with use of denitrinators...Algae is caused by high No3 and high Po4 I guess..but if only a denitrinator is used...I guess its no use unless a chemical reagent is used to remove the Po4 from the water? Does Algae starve from just one of the foods either NO3 or Po4 removed?

THanks
Jo

[PeterGwee]

Algae is caused by high No3 and high Po4 I guess..but if only a denitrinator is used...I guess its no use unless a chemical reagent is used to remove the Po4 from the water? Does Algae starve from just one of the foods either NO3 or Po4 removed?

How high are you referring to? Why do you think it gets so high in the first place? Yes, in long term high NO3 and PO4 might cause issues but why do you have them at such high levels? A case of two bad kits? The plants are not growing? You need a complete set of nutrients (CO2 included) and enough light to grow plants well. Miss one or two nutrients, plants slow down or stop growing and that is when excess will buildup due to poor uptake or no uptake. A denitrinator have no position in a planted tank. You need to address the issues of why the NO3 and PO4 are building up. The high NO3 and PO4 is not the direct cause of algae I can tell you.

Regards
Peter Gwee

[joachimsim]

MOre than o.1ppm with my Red Sea Po4 Test Kit ....it cannot detect lower ranges unlike the Salifert brands for example. What sort of test kits do you recommend are more accurate? the Marine Hobbylists swear by SALIFERT>

[joachimsim]

IF no3 and PO4 are not algae food, what are?

[PeterGwee]

Plant food. Algae is also a plant but very low in biomass and does not require much nutrients to grow. Plants stunt or die when the nutrients gets too low. Thats about all....we are moving off the topic too much.

Regards
Peter Gwee