Singapore Long Kang Fish, Wild Guppies/Endlers.

[Guppendler]

Endlers, wild guppies and fanciful guppies are all under the poecilia family, very much related hence could interbreed easily. If one keeps inbreed K class endler I doubt there is any chance you can get a pure N class endler back. You might see some N class traits but never a pure N class

[tetrakid]

@BernC

Which lk did you catch themm at? I am keen to try some too. What size net did you use, as I think it is not easy to net them?

[Bern C]

Endlers, wild guppies and fanciful guppies are all under the poecilia family, very much related hence could interbreed easily. If one keeps inbreed K class endler I doubt there is any chance you can get a pure N class endler back. You might see some N class traits but never a pure N class

Oh.. So probably they are related many many many years back but after "evolution" they become what they are?
XD I was thinking if keep using a few strain of eg. K class black bar endlers for interbreeding will they go back to wild strain or N class. @_@ Not even near to N class??
So N class endlers will be rare as I heard they almost extincted due people dumping livebears into streams and rivers.

@BernC

Which lk did you catch themm at? I am keen to try some too. What size net did you use, as I think it is not easy to net them?

XD shifu Ted, you are interested in wild guppies too. Net size not more than 15cm. Actually quite easy cos the drain is very small only and lot of guppies in that stretch of drain. I used 2 nets to catch them, one for chasing them. I think it will be better to PM you the location for conservation purposes?? XD But I think there's no threat right as they are consider invasive species.
Last year I went to cedar estate famous guppy spot, it got fenced up.. =(

[vannel]

Endlers and guppies are related species and freely interbreed, although endlers are typically smaller. It's similar to shrimps I suppose.. Like how a yellow neocaridina can interbreed with a red neocaridina.

Fancy guppies are just products of very specific line breeding to achieve a specific geno or phenotype. For example, its believed that the snakeskin guppies were derived from endlers hybridized to guppies.

Each time you mix strains, you are actually tossing a coin and pitting genes against each other to see which gene is transferred and then, which gene from each parent is more dominant. Then, its the dominant genes that are reflected as the phenotype. The thing about genes is that, given a community tank of varying strains, you'd most likely end up with the so-called wild phenotype after many generations as the wild phenotype is typically going to be the most dominant gene. The simplest example of this is probably from their base colour (of which grey, the colour you see on wild caught guppies, is going to be the most dominant).

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[tetrakid]

I bought some metallic blue/green guppies which are all male and have been looking around to find some female blue/green guppies to build a future colony, as I only like that color of guppies and not others.

Bros pse let me know if you come across lfs selling such females.

[fireblade]

Do u mean Moscow blue green? ?

[Guppendler]

Oh.. So probably they are related many many many years back but after "evolution" they become what they are?
XD I was thinking if keep using a few strain of eg. K class black bar endlers for interbreeding will they go back to wild strain or N class. @_@ Not even near to N class??
So N class endlers will be rare as I heard they almost extincted due people dumping livebears into streams and rivers
=(

Not probably, they are indeed related. There's good reasons why N-class endlers are favored primarily because they are pure with their unique wild traits. N-class endlers will become rare more due to their natural habitat being destroyed pretty rapidly.

[Guppendler]

Endlers and guppies are related species and freely interbreed, although endlers are typically smaller. It's similar to shrimps I suppose.. Like how a yellow neocaridina can interbreed with a red neocaridina.

Fancy guppies are just products of very specific line breeding to achieve a specific geno or phenotype. For example, its believed that the snakeskin guppies were derived from endlers hybridized to guppies.

Each time you mix strains, you are actually tossing a coin and pitting genes against each other to see which gene is transferred and then, which gene from each parent is more dominant. Then, its the dominant genes that are reflected as the phenotype. The thing about genes is that, given a community tank of varying strains, you'd most likely end up with the so-called wild phenotype after many generations as the wild phenotype is typically going to be the most dominant gene. The simplest example of this is probably from their base colour (of which grey, the colour you see on wild caught guppies, is going to be the most dominant).

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Very nice explanation Vannel !

[vannel]

Thanks. Last time when I was breeding guppies, I specifically wanted to create my own strain from scratch. Hence, I did a good amount of reading into genetics, specifically relating to guppies. Even till now, my knowledge is nowhere near some of the old birds in the Singapore guppy scene.

Has anyone seen blonde base, glass belly full reds around? I created a line of those some years back and sold it cheaply to a few bros. Wonder if anyone line bred it.. I'd love to buy back some of my glass bellies!

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[tetrakid]

Do u mean Moscow blue green? ?

Yes yes yes... if I can get female Moscow Blue or Blue/green, it would be nice. Actually as long as it is metallic blue will be nice.

[Guppendler]

Thanks. Last time when I was breeding guppies, I specifically wanted to create my own strain from scratch. Hence, I did a good amount of reading into genetics, specifically relating to guppies. Even till now, my knowledge is nowhere near some of the old birds in the Singapore guppy scene.

Has anyone seen blonde base, glass belly full reds around? I created a line of those some years back and sold it cheaply to a few bros. Wonder if anyone line bred it.. I'd love to buy back some of my glass bellies!

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Am doing my own hybridisations with endler and guppy, been fun and I hope someday I could create interesting strains to call my own. Think C328 used to sell glass bellied males but I don't think they are still doing that of recent late any more

[sixhunter]

Am doing my own hybridisations with endler and guppy, been fun and I hope someday I could create interesting strains to call my own. Think C328 used to sell glass bellied males but I don't think they are still doing that of recent late any more

im sure you will be able to achieve with time to come cheers

[tetrakid]

Yes yes yes... if I can get female Moscow Blue or Blue/green, it would be nice. Actually as long as it is metallic blue will be nice.

I may pop in at C328 some time to check. My male guppies have metallic green at the upper body top and blue and black on the rest of the body.

Do you think I will find it there? Do they sell individual females? I don't want to spend 30 bucks for a set as I am quite broke these days. Also, I am not a serious breeder

Any advice/tips from bros here?

[Bern C]

Endlers and guppies are related species and freely interbreed, although endlers are typically smaller. It's similar to shrimps I suppose.. Like how a yellow neocaridina can interbreed with a red neocaridina.

Fancy guppies are just products of very specific line breeding to achieve a specific geno or phenotype. For example, its believed that the snakeskin guppies were derived from endlers hybridized to guppies.

Each time you mix strains, you are actually tossing a coin and pitting genes against each other to see which gene is transferred and then, which gene from each parent is more dominant. Then, its the dominant genes that are reflected as the phenotype. The thing about genes is that, given a community tank of varying strains, you'd most likely end up with the so-called wild phenotype after many generations as the wild phenotype is typically going to be the most dominant gene. The simplest example of this is probably from their base colour (of which grey, the colour you see on wild caught guppies, is going to be the most dominant).

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^_^ Many thanks for your explanation. I think I also found my answer from wiki though not sure how accurate is the source.
"According to Stan Shubel, the author of Aquarium Care for Fancy Guppies, the Endler guppy is, in fact, not a separate species; it has the same genetic makeup as the common guppy, yet is given its own name, Poecilia wingei, for conservation purposes. However, in 2009 S. Schories, M. K. Meyer and M. Schartl published on the basis of molecular data that Poecilia wingei is a separated taxon from P. reticulata and P. obscura.^[1] Because of this, their taxonomy is greatly controversial."

Yup.. I understand they are of the same genus or probably relative. Eg. like Aedes mosquito, the 2 common spp. are aegyptic and albopictus. They came from the same genus but actually quite different in some way, not just only their phenotype but also their feeding patterns & behaviors, that they are classified into different species. It's probably due to the environment and many years of adaptation that they gain and lose certain genetic traits that they can't revert back.
Actually I wanna know if endlers and wild guppies are related as in the same species or a varaint due to the genotypes. Though It seem that the relation between endlers and wild guppies seem controversy. But I starts to see they are of different species due to their physical traits and some behavior. As the source stated endler can have the same genectic make up of common guppies but probably there're genectic differences that they can no longer revert back to a wild guppies or its origin lineage. They created their own unique traits that others Poecilias don't share. What I am interested is the wild traits of the endlers. The N classes are their wild traits?? XD Which N classes?
I think shrimp will be much easier to understand compare to guppies. @_@ Guppy has many combinition of genotypes that create so many variants. With interbreeding, it's confusing to determine if it's variant or species.

[vannel]

The whole study of Guppy genes are still very much disputed and a few major schools of thought exist.. When you do start dabbling in their genetics, you'll gain alot of insight into how to "design" your own strain. That's to say, you are breeding with a specific goal instead of just via trial and error.

With N class endlers, I do believe those are classified based specifically on the fact that they are wild caught and line bred very strictly within their own class. Once they are bred "down", there's just no way it'll be N class again since no one can say the offspring did not inherit some recessive gene that's just not exhibited (even if the phenotype matches what a typical N class endler would look like)..

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[Bern C]

The whole study of Guppy genes are still very much disputed and a few major schools of thought exist.. When you do start dabbling in their genetics, you'll gain alot of insight into how to "design" your own strain. That's to say, you are breeding with a specific goal instead of just via trial and error.

With N class endlers, I do believe those are classified based specifically on the fact that they are wild caught and line bred very strictly within their own class. Once they are bred "down", there's just no way it'll be N class again since no one can say the offspring did not inherit some recessive gene that's just not exhibited (even if the phenotype matches what a typical N class endler would look like)..

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Yup.. @_@ Genetics is a whole new level for me, still looking into it. It's just like a scientist trying to create a new species through genetic mutation and thought that he succeeded as he changed the phenotype of the species, eg. the colors. But later found out that he failed as the species next generations of offspring revert back after a few breeding with the original species.

Yeah.. I found Endlers very interesting as different strain of Endlers able to survive and maintain their strains. Even with a few more generation of selective breeding, ie select the offspring of those that exhibit pure class dominant genes, we won't be able to get a pure class or 99% pure class?
Simple eg, like red ramhorn snails that has recessive genes so 1/2 of their offspring will be the normal brown snails. By breeding the red offspring, the next generation will have lower % of brown?? So on and on till I only have red offspring?? @_@

[vannel]

Hmm.. Genetics is a long topic and I'm no guru, so correct me if I'm wrong here, anyone.

When you breed 2 guppies, the offspring takes a single gene from each parent (its way more complex than just a gene, but to simplify the explanation..). So then, what happens is you have a matrix of possibilities..

Parent 1: Ab (assuming A is dominant gene, b is recessive gene)
Parent 2: Ab

Offspring Matrix:
25% - AA (looks same as parents)
50% - Ab (looks same as parents)
25% - bb (shows recessive trait)

This matrix is because a gene is taken from each parent.. The 50% is due to Ab being the same as bA (hence, 25% + 25%).

From then on, if the recessive trait is what you are after, the next filial generation (P2) will always give you recessive phenotypes because:

Parent 1: bb
Parent 2: bb

Offspring Matrix:
100% - bb

Because both genes from both parents are recessive.

So to answer your question, if it were just simple genetics and only 1 gene determined the specific phenotype of the snail's colour, then, you would get 100% red snails if you bred 2 red snails together.

Of course, if it wasn't just a simple matrix (like some super genes that always override, and some that actually depend on other genes, or some genes that are either X-linked or X-linked, etc), you'd be expecting different results.

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[sixhunter]

Hmm.. Genetics is a long topic and I'm no guru, so correct me if I'm wrong here, anyone.

When you breed 2 guppies, the offspring takes a single gene from each parent (its way more complex than just a gene, but to simplify the explanation..). So then, what happens is you have a matrix of possibilities..

Parent 1: Ab (assuming A is dominant gene, b is recessive gene)
Parent 2: Ab

Offspring Matrix:
25% - AA (looks same as parents)
50% - Ab (looks same as parents)
25% - bb (shows recessive trait)

This matrix is because a gene is taken from each parent.. The 50% is due to Ab being the same as bA (hence, 25% + 25%).

From then on, if the recessive trait is what you are after, the next filial generation (P2) will always give you recessive phenotypes because:

Parent 1: bb
Parent 2: bb

Offspring Matrix:
100% - bb

Because both genes from both parents are recessive.

So to answer your question, if it were just simple genetics and only 1 gene determined the specific phenotype of the snail's colour, then, you would get 100% red snails if you bred 2 red snails together.

Of course, if it wasn't just a simple matrix (like some super genes that always override, and some that actually depend on other genes, or some genes that are either X-linked or X-linked, etc), you'd be expecting different results.

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thanks for the sharing, so if we were to get the phenotype we desired, would that be the dominant gene in each parent ? meaning we are trying to get all the AA, so parent 1 + 2 (both AA) then will result in a stable line of future AA offsprings ?

would like to ask how do i try to hybrid two phenotypes together, example - a pattern + coloration.

[vannel]

I failed to mention that uppercase means the gene is dominant. Lowercase means recessive.

Therefore, gene A will always be exhibited regardless of the other gene (ie AA or Ab or bA). Recessive genes are the interesting ones. The only way for a recessive trait (for example, albino) to be exhibited is when both inherited genes are recessive (bb). It does not mean its dominant.

To be clear, if you want AA, then the only way to be sure is to use parents that are both AA. However, if its just the phenotype, you would also be fine using AA x Ab/bA since a dominant A gene will definitely be inherited from the 1st parent.

To create a new strain from 2 different ones, you'll need to know what overrides what. Many genes can coexist because they are not paired on the same "location" on the DNA. Each kind of gene describes a different feature of the fish. Only when they clash on the same level will dominance come into play. Example, a gene that is for base colour is not more dominant than a gene that is for tail shape.

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[vannel]

Actually, wikipedia has a much, much better explanation and example of this "matrix" or properly known as the Punnett Square.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

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