Western Hobbyist vs. Asian Hobbyist

[jwuog]

Asians however, are more "chin chye" so they don't bother much about such things. The usual things Asians will argue about - cost, color, body form or quality or a combination of all factors. The fact that Asians are more tolerant of hybrids and deformed strains and dyed fishes makes us look like "barbarians" to the westerners. It's all fair though given how they can espouse their scientific ideas, yet immediately shoot down counter claims with even more absurd forms of reasoning, especially if an Asian hobbyist is making them look bad for being ignorant at times.

Don't know about Asian on 'chin chye' – just witness the discussion on shrimps. Can't comment on Western as AQ is the only regular forum I visit. But someone hit the nail on the head regarding space. Given space availability to an Asian, or Western, Northern, Southern, Martian for that matter, any hobbyist will likely take a plunge at a huge aquaria, financial means aside. I think there are a few AQ members from Indonesia (where space is available) who have huge aquariums.

[y26tan18]

Though I must say, griping about cost is one of my pet peeves where Asians are concerned. Is it so difficult not to bargain at times, or is it already in our DNA?

We feel cheated if we hear or see of someone getting the same fish cheaper then us. Very buay song de.
But if we get the fishes cheaper on the other hand...it'll be like heehehehe, sucker !
Doesn't matter the color or quality of the fish. Unless its a huge difference.
Exceptions would be Arowanas though, cause the nicer the fish, the more $$$ =D

[bluebubbles]

I also believed the acessibility to aquarium stuff plays an important role. In Singapore, aquatic plants came in varieties and easily obtainable at "cheap" price thus people are spoilt for choice. In Western country not in the tropical climate, such luxury may be lacking and people simply took from what they can find in their neighbourhood or even their backyard. Thus the tendency of overstocking their tank is low.

Stocking the tank also depended on the size of fish. If you keep Arowana, you are unlikely to have aquatic plants and soil not to mention chiller, CO2 and stuff like that. If you keep small fishes, you will want to design proper landscape to match..

Education also play its role. My father who is non-educated prefer to bare tank so that he needn't have to read about PH, KH and nutrients...it is simply trial and error. His children who kept tank will prefer to read more, compare and than do a proper set-up to minimise casualty....

And I fully agree space constraint plays an important decision making on keeping a small or large tank. If I stay in 3-room HDB it is unlessly I will want more than 5 footer tank. If you stay in big bungalow, a 5 footer may seemed too small for taste, thus people might want to custom-make their tank to look like they live in an under-water world at home, and those with spending power will certainly want a their tank to look absurdly stylist and good. As for now, I will want my 2-feet tank to have different type of plants but not overtocking it, yet look zen and full of mini fishes without compromising their spaces. Challenging but exciting, a matter of taste again.

My 2 cts worth of thought.

[fisherw]

The lfs is also a determinant. I have read on other forums/sites of stores in the west refusing to sell livestock to customers for various reasons. In Practical Fishkeeping, because the customer was riding a bicycle and was going to transport the fish home that way. And also from PFK that goldfishes cannot be sold to customers below a certain age. You won't find that here.

Also I understand in some places, they often buy or exchange fishes in club or hobbyist gatherings rather than from lfs interested in making the profit by selling off the stock as fast as possible. Particularly those in some of our wet-markets where the uncle or auntie know little about fish-keeping and will sell a child a new tank and lots of fishes (too much for the tank) and without advice on cycling. Make money first.

[stormhawk]

LFS in the west try to sell livestock, plants and equipment responsibly. In Asia, the bottom line is profit. This has always been the case and any LFS that tends to dish out good advice may come across as "loh soh" to some hobbyists here.

Clubs are very common in the west, because they can come from different regions within the same country. Over here, the need for clubs is not as high, because your next door neighbour can be a fishkeeper too.

This is probably one thing we lack. Because it is hard to open a society or club without first getting approval from the Registrar of Societies here, most people do not want to undergo the legal requirements needed to establish such clubs. Another thing is, most locals lose interest in whatever they are keeping after several years, unless they have different interests within the hobby. For example, some people give up their fishes and tanks altogether due to personal reasons, or just loss of interest. This year's Aquarama was a case in point. There were noticeably less exhibitors as compared to the previous Aquarama. In comparison, any IT/PC Show will draw thousands to come and buy.

As for the bit on "chin chye", generally, most aquarists here are less concerned about specific details. Even among shrimp hobbyists, there are those who do not care what grade this shrimp is, or what breed is that shrimp as long as it looks nice. Same applies to almost every aspect of the hobby. Only the truly ardent hobbyists will take time to learn more info on such matters. In Europe, they try to emphasise education on such matters, especially within aquarium clubs and to new members. Even their kids learn early on the importance of cycling new tanks, knowing the scientific names and the culture of live foods among other things.

Some of them even go on collecting trips in an organised manner. Locally, we do such things on an impromptu schedule, given that most people are busy with their work. This explains why some people just randomly plan to go on trips to Malaysia or Indonesia for that matter.

[stormhawk]

We feel cheated if we hear or see of someone getting the same fish cheaper then us. Very buay song de.
But if we get the fishes cheaper on the other hand...it'll be like heehehehe, sucker !
Doesn't matter the color or quality of the fish. Unless its a huge difference.
Exceptions would be Arowanas though, cause the nicer the fish, the more $$$ =D

As they say, locals are 'kiasu' so if such matters happen, they can raise hell and more. Especially if they feel they were cheated, when in some cases, it is a simple case of misunderstanding. For example, person A buys a shrimp that is supposed to look like Picture X, but when he brings it home, the shrimp does not get the color back and he thinks person B is cheating him, when the shrimp in question is just stressed and needs time to settle in.

[Navanod]

IMHO, the differences are mainly due to 3 reasons:

1. Prices of livestocks and their "value" to hobbyist
2. Knowledge and education levels of LFS staff
3. Knowledge and education levels of customers/hobbyist

I was in London last month and visited this LFS called Aquatic design centre. It was not exactly super modern/nicely renovated, but everything is quite tidy and the tanks are clean and not overcrowded. Our LFSs, some are super cluttered and the tanks are overstocked at times with multiple species, with dead fishes left to rot/get eaten. The tanks are all properly labelled with the fish name, scientific name and some details on the species. There were also no bags of fish for sale, everything is in a filtered tank. That's the first impression I get walking in.

I then immediately noticed the price of neon tetras. $3.50 pounds per fish. $7 SGD for a neon tetra...hmmm...we get half a dozen for $1 SGD sometimes! No wonder the ang mos get upset when their fishies die!

As I wondered around, I noticed a staff helping a customer and overheard their conversations. The staff was trying to persuade the lady NOT to buy a certain fish, because the lady had another type of fish at home they're not suitable for each other. The staff then suggested a schooling fish instead and the customer wanted to buy only 2, asking if her existing fishes can school with it. The staff explained that they're different and must school with their own kind, minimum is to get XX number.

I was reminded of how, when I was a newbie, I was tricked into buying balloon rams by a chinatown LFS because the boss assured me the rams can be kept with shrimps. "Their mouth so small, cannot eat shrimps one lah!" I still recalled. I also ended up with 2 males, who proceeded to fight. The culture is definitely different, due to cost and awareness levels.

Fishes here are low value, so must be sold in large volumes. Conditions at some shops are also not great, so the aim is to clear the livestocks before they drop dead. You hardly find LFS telling you not to buy anything! You bring home, they die, your problem. So the responsibility here falls entirely on hobbyists.
There are a few specialized LFS here that are much better of course, not all are bad, but by and large, those LFS you find at wet markets or generic ones selling all sorts of things are generally not the place to ask for advice.
Last weekend, I saw a new LFS near IKEA queensway and spotted an albino looking pleco in a tank that looked unlike anything I had seen before. Only when I moved closer, then I realized that it was a half rotten pleco! With albino BONES!

[barmby]

Second that, I was trying to give scientific info recently and the reply was "lets stop before become lame"

It is really different because I also moderator at Aquascaping World forum which majority of the member are westerner. Over there when I answer question, must get ready to back it up with more info because someone will asked for it and not necessary the thread starter.

As usual, the westerners are more particular about information and facts, and will try very hard to disprove one's theories and such. So sometimes it becomes a combative issue between fellow hobbyists, instead of a peaceful discussion and not about who is right or wrong, or who is more "pro" than the other.

Asians however, are more "chin chye" so they don't bother much about such things. The usual things Asians will argue about - cost, color, body form or quality or a combination of all factors. The fact that Asians are more tolerant of hybrids and deformed strains and dyed fishes makes us look like "barbarians" to the westerners. It's all fair though given how they can espouse their scientific ideas, yet immediately shoot down counter claims with even more absurd forms of reasoning, especially if an Asian hobbyist is making them look bad for being ignorant at times.

Though I must say, griping about cost is one of my pet peeves where Asians are concerned. Is it so difficult not to bargain at times, or is it already in our DNA?

Just like the Europe sovereign debt - they keep talking, they jialat, the world economy also jialat

[lucasjiang]

IMHO, the differences are mainly due to 3 reasons:

1. Prices of livestocks and their "value" to hobbyist
2. Knowledge and education levels of LFS staff
3. Knowledge and education levels of customers/hobbyist

I was in London last month and visited this LFS called Aquatic design centre. It was not exactly super modern/nicely renovated, but everything is quite tidy and the tanks are clean and not overcrowded. Our LFSs, some are super cluttered and the tanks are overstocked at times with multiple species, with dead fishes left to rot/get eaten. The tanks are all properly labelled with the fish name, scientific name and some details on the species. There were also no bags of fish for sale, everything is in a filtered tank. That's the first impression I get walking in.

I then immediately noticed the price of neon tetras. $3.50 pounds per fish. $7 SGD for a neon tetra...hmmm...we get half a dozen for $1 SGD sometimes! No wonder the ang mos get upset when their fishies die!

As I wondered around, I noticed a staff helping a customer and overheard their conversations. The staff was trying to persuade the lady NOT to buy a certain fish, because the lady had another type of fish at home they're not suitable for each other. The staff then suggested a schooling fish instead and the customer wanted to buy only 2, asking if her existing fishes can school with it. The staff explained that they're different and must school with their own kind, minimum is to get XX number.

I was reminded of how, when I was a newbie, I was tricked into buying balloon rams by a chinatown LFS because the boss assured me the rams can be kept with shrimps. "Their mouth so small, cannot eat shrimps one lah!" I still recalled. I also ended up with 2 males, who proceeded to fight. The culture is definitely different, due to cost and awareness levels.

Fishes here are low value, so must be sold in large volumes. Conditions at some shops are also not great, so the aim is to clear the livestocks before they drop dead. You hardly find LFS telling you not to buy anything! You bring home, they die, your problem. So the responsibility here falls entirely on hobbyists.
There are a few specialized LFS here that are much better of course, not all are bad, but by and large, those LFS you find at wet markets or generic ones selling all sorts of things are generally not the place to ask for advice.
Last weekend, I saw a new LFS near IKEA queensway and spotted an albino looking pleco in a tank that looked unlike anything I had seen before. Only when I moved closer, then I realized that it was a half rotten pleco! With albino BONES!

I went to that pet shop and saw the same thing too Their fish are really not well-taken care of, only the arowanas and the bigger fish look better, there were dead bodies inside the tanks with small fish. I think this is a good example of how the fish shops care only about profit, in this case where the arowanas are worth more so they pay more attention.

[Navanod]

I went to that pet shop and saw the same thing too Their fish are really not well-taken care of, only the arowanas and the bigger fish look better, there were dead bodies inside the tanks with small fish. I think this is a good example of how the fish shops care only about profit, in this case where the arowanas are worth more so they pay more attention.

There used to be another LFS at that block, but they also do pet grooming for dogs and sells hamsters. The 2 PRC ladies running the place at least know what they are doing and talking about when I went and ask about shrimps and fishes although they speak in mandarin and were very philosophical / anthropomorphic in the way they describe certain scientific info. Didn't last too long though...location is an issue

[lucasjiang]

Last time Biotope Aquarium was also in the same block before the pet shop which you said said was run by the two PRC ladies, somehow all the petshops there dont last long Fengshui i guess?

[Surfari'sAquariumSupplies]

American/European LFSs really take good care of their fish, the environment and all is usually clean and cozy, they put gravel, plants and all, keeping the water quality in tip top condition. However their prices are as shocking as ever, like bro Navanod mentioned. I did not personally go to these countries, but saw these prices being advertised online, not going to mention the names of these LFSs. One guppy, of the 'bread and butter' variations, can cost up to US$2-3 per piece, when our local LFSs usually sell it at $1-$1.50 each... One Neon Red Dwarf Gourami, usually sold $1-$2 at our LFSs, can be as pricey as US$5.25 in the US... but i guess its worth the expense for a healthy livestock.

Agree with bro Lucasjiang. Especially seen in our local heartland LFSs, people put Common Plecos in small plastic tubs, or even styrofoam boxes without basic filtration, some even without basic aeration. Feeders, same plight. We can see competition grade Arowana or Fancy Goldfishes being kept in spacious tanks with mass sump filtration systems, yet Common plecos, with similar bio-loads, are kept in such miserly conditions, being taken advantage of their hardy and exceptionally tolerant nature. Every fish deserves to thrive, and I think no fish should be kept in less-than-ideal conditions just because they can tolerate the shop-owner's laziness and unwillingness to provide them with a better place to live. Also, I think its just morally wrong to classify fish as 'feeders' or 'poor quality', and send them to the feeder fish industry. Westerners however, seemingly treat every fish with the same love and respect, ensuring that each and every fish are well provided for. Nowadays we even see in our LFSs, a number of female bettas placed in tanks, yes, but most do not provide any form of filtration nor a simple air supply, simply because they are 'able to take in atmospheric air'....

It is also being mentioned that shopkeepers and assistants of LFSs in Western Countries provide many insightful advice for their customers, suggesting the compatibility of various fish, proper tank size and all. However our local LFSs do seem to place money-making as a priority, and wouldn't make a noise if a customer was buying aquarium salt and L46 Zebra Hypans together. But our local customers will also rarely bother to take in advice from shopkeepers. Some shopkeepers do warn customers not to miss out water conditioners, or suggest customers to buy at least 10 tetras instead of 2, yet being accused of trying to earn more money, or claiming that they are only keeping fishes for fun. i came across a few cases myself, suggesting buyers to have at least 3-5 Platies/Guppies in a tank instead of just one or two, since they are sociable and gregarious(prefer to co-exist as a group, mingle with other members of same type) yet I was also being accused of trying to cheat him.... Not going to mention who, but there are many more easy-going customers who are very much willing to accept suggestions whomever shopkeeper might have.

[Shadow]

Should change from American/European to American/European/Japanese . Japanese LFS have all you mention above plus beautiful Aquascape, maybe due to ADA influence, at least the fish shop I visited in Tokyo. I have not visited Hong Kong yet but my guess probably the same as Japan

[stormhawk]

Just like the Europe sovereign debt - they keep talking, they jialat, the world economy also jialat

Haha, yes I agree. But this is another topic and very explosive if the Europeans start talking.

The LFS near IKEA, is this a combined pet shop? I remember seeing 1 LFS there at the old Biotope block but it was not in the best of condition.

[Navanod]

Haha, yes I agree. But this is another topic and very explosive if the Europeans start talking.

The LFS near IKEA, is this a combined pet shop? I remember seeing 1 LFS there at the old Biotope block but it was not in the best of condition.

The combined shop closed down and taken over by some medical shop. Another one opened up further down a few months back

[stormhawk]

I remember there was another shop at the block right after the Biotope old block. It was just another block up the road along Jalan Bukit Merah I think. Not sure if that shop is still around.

Dead fishes abound at C328 from time to time but because there's so many customers there for different reasons, they just buy what they need and close one eye to such matters. Sometimes, buying the fish in separate bags is a blessing in disguise where it is concerned. You need not worry that the fish or shrimp have been kept in tanks with diseased tankmates.

[Jim]

What are all the fishes health like in the shops that just have hundreds of plastic bags filled with water and fish hanging on walls in Asian countries?

How often is the water changed if the fish don't sell?

(westerner asking these questions )

Oh and don't worry I have been to plenty of western LFS and seen dead fish half eaten in tanks, tanks that haven't had a water change in a year, unsuitable species mixed together, fish riddled with disease and been given terrible advice by teenage LFS workers hired because they are cheap labour.

[stormhawk]

Hi Jim,

Well to answer your questions:

They are basically swimming in their own waste as the water will foul up sooner or later. The ones that get purchased as soon as they hit the store are the lucky ones, or unlucky, if the owner is a dimwit and causes their death when he brings them home.

From what I see, LFS here usually do water changes once or twice a week, because water isn't cheap here.

Cheap labour is normal, when stores need to keep costs down. The problem is, communication can be annoying, especially when you're speaking A and the staff responds with B.

[Jim]

I've always been amazed when I see the fish hanging by the hundreds in those plastic bags.

We had a chain store LFS here in Australia (now closed down) that used to let customers catch their own fish from the LFS holding tanks with NO supervision. You would see fish flip out of nets and be picked up by customers and thrown back into the tank. A plastic bag overfilled with fish, water splashed everywhere etc etc absolutely no regard to the fish or their stress or health.

Sadly I think that fish get a pretty raw deal world wide.

[hencpu]

Should change from American/European to American/European/Japanese . Japanese LFS have all you mention above plus beautiful Aquascape, maybe due to ADA influence, at least the fish shop I visited in Tokyo. I have not visited Hong Kong yet but my guess probably the same as Japan

Japanese may have beautiful aquascape, but from what I see on websites & videos so far, the majority of Japanese tend to overstock as well, since space is a premium there. When I first started doing research, I was stuck between lightly stocked western camp & overstocked Asian camp. In the end I thought why not follow the Japanese, they should know better! When I saw the GEX tank stocking guide, I was like then I was like
http://www.gex-fp.co.jp/fish/catalog...x.html#page=17
Imagine you can keep 5x goldfish or 10x tetra in a 5 gallon, when most westerners would say AT LEAST 20 gallon for that!