Eco Culture closing down?

[doubleace]

There got good stuff?

[illumnae]

biotope

[Jungle-mania]

Wah, xian...Can anyone ask if Azmi is willing to help to bring in rare fish on request? Damn tired to go hunting all the time at shops with the shop owner knowing next to nothing about them. With Biotope the only real bastion of knowledge based LFS left, this is a very real threat to our very hobby, aside from the up and coming Midori. This does not create a healthy competition.

True, it may seem that they may have a monopoly in this niche area, but there are too few shops left to educate and service the bigger community of fishkeepers. In time to come, when too few people are aware or interested in this hobby of ours, you know what will happen then.

So anyone here going to venture into starting a knowledged based LFS? I think now is a good time, since economy is picking up and people have more cash to let go.

[yaya]

Hi all,

last friday i went and i asked the guy when he came out from the office if the shop is still open. He told me that they are renovating the place, so i assumed they are not closing down the shop. i guess we shouldn't worry much because officially they didn't make any news about closing the shop.

[zenscape]

Midori staff also told me eco-culture is closing down. But I didn't ask whether close for good or change location. Have fond memory of Eco-culture at Eminent Plaza

[lorba]

Eco-culture will take a break from macpherson, i believe Azmi will talk about it once he is free, after this festive season. I do not think Eco-culture will close for good, but coming back when the time and place is right. Let's hope we have good news in 08 from Azmi.

Another knowledged based LFS is nice to have but will probably end up closing as well if it is not commercially driven and substained. So, i think how any more knowledge based LFS can hope to open up and run for long really depends on what support they gain.

Selling 100 tetras to a taxi driver everyday, who got only goldfishes in his tank is actually far better then recieving 100 thumbs-up from hobbyists who are educated by the shop but did not buy a thing.

[benny]

Selling 100 tetras to a taxi driver everyday, who got only goldfishes in his tank is actually far better then recieving 100 thumbs-up from hobbyists who are educated by the shop but did not buy a thing.

Well said.

Everybody wants a nice LFS with air conditioning and a good selection of livestock and equipment. But when they need to buy something, it's off to C328, Petmart, etc or buy used on the forums. How do we expect shops to survive?

Cheers,

[jwuog]

Sigh~agreed, it's hard for shops that try to bring in different fish other than the norm to survive in Singapore. When I talked to Azmi, Thio and Ben while visiting their stores, two themes ALWAYS crop up:

1) Singapore's market too small, i.e. the volume is not enough such that ordering fish other than your neon, cardinal etc makes it a problem. You have problem bringing them in, and you have problem moving your stock (you're stucked with them).

2) When it comes down to it, the majority of Singapore fish keepers just refuse to pay top dollar for fish. (Exclude the monster fish/arowana keepers because the relative price of their livestock is higher as pertain to the species. For example, if you have a rare tetra than cost $9 per, lots of people will balk. Why pay $9 when you can get a cardinal for one dollar.)

They always use an example like this to tell me: so-and-so may request, for example, a b.macrostoma. But when they actually bring it in, it's "wow, nice but no thank you." And one of them told me that he once got stucked with a tank of banded pencilfish that will make him think twice about bringing it in again.

At the end of the day, hate to say this, but we only have ourselves (collectively as local aquarist) to blame if Eco-culture couldn't make it.

But I certainly hold up hope that Azmi will be back because when speaking to the people, they said Azmi right now is busy with projects and they are revamping the place.

Fingers crossed.

[ranmasatome]

actually...in addition to who buys and who doesn't buy... another problem is the quantity in which they have to bring the fishes in. Choy and i have both forked out about $60-65 before for a tetra about 3cm large...but the issue is if these shops have to bring in fishes by the hundreds..then who will buy?? i mean buy one fish and buy 50fishes at $60 each is a different story..

[BFG]

I think it's about time we do something about this current situation. Eco Culture is probably gone ( I hope not ) and the last 'knowledgeable' lfs would be Thio's Biotope. We need a new strategy to support and keep this last lfs afloat and thriving.

I don't know about the running of business but would a merger be beneficial? Azmi and Thio might be located in a single place to lower the running cost of an lfs? Just a suggestion......

We have lfs that sells equipment at competitive price than the other neighbourhood lfs. What we need is an lfs that would supply the livestock. We should let our favourite well knowledgeable lfs ( Biotope and Eco Culture ) run their business selling regular livestock BUT us buyer have to change the way we shop. We could consolidate what rare or special livestock that we would want to own and after a targetted number is reach, the 2 said owner then would proceed to order the livestock so that upon arrival, at least most if not all of the livestock would be taken up. This is currently being practise by some marine farm in Pasir Ris and a few other marine lfs. The advantage is that the lfs would have little livestock to hold after the shipment have been snapped up by the buyers. This would free up space ( tanks ) for regular livestock to be placed in and to be sold as per normal. The lfs would need to spend little to feed the leftover livestock.

This discussion about the closing of our favourite lfs has been discussed before but still the trend of purchasing the cheapest livestock will never go away. We need to change the way we shop for livestock, the way we setup our tanks and the way we use our equipment. We cannot ill-afford the closure of Biotope, our last bastion of knowledgeable lfs. Once this is gone, only a handful of aquarist might benefit through lobangs and such and the rest could only dream of getting that certain species of livestock or suffer at the hands of the handful 'carrot chopper, fly by night fish salesman' who do not own a shop but claims that they have the 'lobang' to bring in this, that, but you have to pay the inflated prices.

[jwuog]

I second that. If "Wong Lim Tan" aquarium closes, there are many others replacing it.

But one like Eco-culture or Biotope closes, hard press to find another replacement.

In fact what BFG suggested, one of the knowledgeable lfs had KIND OF broached before but the problem he say the "competitive" nature of the business and the need to survive makes it hard to form an "alliance." (Not that it's not possible, I think).

Yeah, I think we should just consolidate and confirm the rare livestock that we want and then the lfs partnership would go ahead and order it. In that way, consumers win, and both lfs make business too.

[Aquaculture]

This is true that Eco Culture is closing down or gone and there was a guy there then that told me that Eco Culture and Midori is actually under the umbrella of Green Chapter, but Midori would be there to replace the shift. If I remembered correctly, I was then told that Bro Azmi is currently doing more outdoor consultations than retail.

Here's a url to Green Chapter's site showing their members... guess Bro Azmi would still be in the scene

http://www.greenchapter.com/whoweare.php

Guess we'll have to pay ERP just to visit them next time...

[cairocks]

We have lfs that sells equipment at competitive price than the other neighbourhood lfs. What we need is an lfs that would supply the livestock. We should let our favourite well knowledgeable lfs ( Biotope and Eco Culture ) run their business selling regular livestock BUT us buyer have to change the way we shop. We could consolidate what rare or special livestock that we would want to own and after a targetted number is reach, the 2 said owner then would proceed to order the livestock so that upon arrival, at least most if not all of the livestock would be taken up. This is currently being practise by some marine farm in Pasir Ris and a few other marine lfs. The advantage is that the lfs would have little livestock to hold after the shipment have been snapped up by the buyers. This would free up space ( tanks ) for regular livestock to be placed in and to be sold as per normal. The lfs would need to spend little to feed the leftover livestock.

Actually, this is the way Far East aquatic at Simon Road operates. They would consolidate plants orders each month from hobbyist and order from Tropica. Most of the time, their order would be cleared and there would not be much Tropica plants for the walk in customers.

[Jungle-mania]

I like to add on that one begets the other, their pool of customers that they can get for doing consultation, maintenance, aquascaping, etc only existed because the availability of knowledge to the public. How many average joes who have walked by Sam Yick's shop at marine Parade and looked at the tank and said "Wow! I wish I had that in my home too." Let's not deny it, we all someway or another got hooked on to this hobby this way.

Undeniably, it is hard to provide your daily sustenance on the sales of your fishes and it certainly makes sense when a person pays you a hundred an hour to do up his or her tank. Which is why many have went this path. Remember the shop at Chinatown market on the second floor? He went the same way too and he too brought his own fair share of oddball fish into the scene.

I say that at this point of time, we cannot depend on the LFS owners to create the awareness among public, it is up to us. As Altum Lover 76 has done with the future generation for Monfort Secondary, I know that we have to do the same for the rest of Singapore. I highlight again, our hobby is at threat of dying out in the next few years.

[doubleace]

yup agreed.. How come they dont have this course for those fish hobbists..

[BFG]

I can forsee Aquarama 2009 or even 2011 will have lesser freshwater participation. Yes, we know that the awareness must be created for the public that's why we started this forum in the 1st place, to bring awareness to the public about this hobby. We have placed our forum internet address on some of the lfs who would let us placed the decal on their shop front. But sometimes our effort are hindered when we could have made a bigger impact in this arena. We do have exhibition every 2 years, this is where we could promote this hobby to the public but we could not as the rental for an area in the exhibition hall are really exceeding what we can come up with.

And because of rising cost, I would predict lesser and lesser clubs would participate in this event due to the lack of funds. A special concessionary cost should be given to clubs and such so that the public would receive exposure on what is available in this country and to dispell any myth they have in this hobby. The industry would benefit from this exposure as more and more people would have gained the knowledge through the discussion and sharing of ideas that would happen in forums like this. But, I do not believe this could happen when the next exhibition comes into town. We as spectator can only watch with despair as lesser and lesser clubs becomes visitor instead of becoming a part of the event in promoting this hobby to the public.

Only time will tell........

[lorba]

For a start lfs could sponsor a tank or two at every primary, secondary schools, JCs and help start an interest/ fish club and teach them the basics in aquarium keeping. Many people have the misconception that keeping fishtank is so very difficult and not for them. That was exactly my impression and the reason behind my initial reluctance when my wife suggested the idea of a fish tank as a school holiday activity to keep my then young kids from getting into mischief.

Sponsor could means a lot of money even for 1 school, which I do not know which LFS will want to do it. Even just $2000 is a lot to a LFS. Running a school club and keep it going requires a teacher who is interested her/himself, and is subjected to fund allocation to make any differences. It probably takes a team of marketing and sales guy to do it successful and properly for schoolS.


As for creating awareness, it really takes more then this forum putting decals in LFS. It is too small and It does not bring new people into the hobby apart from those who are already in the hobby. If not, they will not stop by the LFS and get to see that decal, which at best is a A5 size with no spotlight shining on it.


More funded exhibitions or jointly organized exhibitions should be held regularly with things to buy and education aids to be handed out to the general public. More show tanks of different varieties must be around to showcase possibilities to the people. Many dont even know what a planted tank is. Only so that more papas will buy goldfish or terrapin tank for their sons and another small planted tank for themselves. It usually starts this way.

However, looking around us, which LFS will respond (to AQ) even if we want to organise it (1 show is definitely not enough). AQ is not profit driven, no vested interest, no income and no full time paid staff. Strictly speaking, there is even no obligation to push the industry. Where will the manpower and money come from? Do you think C328, Polyart, Aquastar or biotope will take out $3000/event each to help promote it (Now who get's to sell that Apistogramma)? What about labor, product cost and manhour?

Big players like QH may do this event time to time. But they are probably more interested to sell then to educate, impart and promote.

[yorky]

Why talk about all these now? sigh...
Obviously we are all not spending enough to keep the good LFS afloat.
That's the bottomline.

Sorry guys.. that's the hard facts, consumers are partly responsible for the demise.
Case in point, PetSafari.
They used to bring Apistogrammas from Germany from the renown Wilhelm breeder.
Folks were complaining that PetSafari's Apistogrammas were only good for viewing and that its expensive..
Now Apistogramma hobbyists here can only enjoy a fraction of what's available in the past, both in terms of selections and quality.
So, next time, a good LFS comes up, do spend more.. :P
Make them rich, and hopefully then we can experience the richness of the hobby.

[Jungle-mania]

Yes, world goes around base on money, but the question to the consumer is why spend? If the consumer does not comprehend or appreciate a product, why would he come money for it? It's like trying to sell tampon to a man (since ice cubes and fridges are indeed sold to eskimos, I will have to omit that phrase)

If the individual is not aware of a product or properly informed, he will not spend any money. Even if he does on impulse, what are the chances of him or her spending more?

To say thay the current individuals are to keep buying fish from the LFS on the constant basis to keep them afloat can only mean a few things:

1. The LFS business model failed.
2. Consumers have alot of time and money (and tanks) to keep this fishes in tip top condition.
3. The consumers are killing fishes on a daily rate, that they have to keep buying.
4. The plants keep dying on the consumer, that they have to keep buying.
5. The consumer does not know anything, but wants to be part of the crowd, so he keeps buying and buying and buying...

Unless there are other possible reasons that I have not listed, I think my argument shows that majority of consumers spend more to compensate for their lack of knowledge or understanding of the hobby.

[BFG]

Sponsoring for school from an lfs might not be feasible. The objective here is to educate and we have that covered. Forums like AQ, PetFrd, PlecoFanatic, Singapore Betta Club, Singapore Reef Club, Killies.com, Shrimpnow.com and some others forum on aquatic animals stand at the ready to educate new members about their new hobbies, how diverse it maybe. But it's the consumer purchasing power that will make or break the lfs livelihood. That is why I propose that all the aquarist in this hobby to consolidate what rare or special livestock they want to own and get the numbers for the order to start. Members could have a list on what they would want and advertise it at Biotope merchant section. Biotope would handle the importation part of that order. I believe Thio won't mind if some of the members here share their overseas contacts with him as this would be easier for Thio to go through with the order rather than he have to source for it himself.

But aquarist who wants to have the livestock must also be aware of the cost to own that special livestock. I do not want a situation whereby so many aquarist order so many livestock but when the shipment arrived, no one will come forward to purchase it. In the end, the lfs has extra stock in the inventory that can't be moved as fast as he planned for it.

Like I've specified earlier, once this last bastion fall, aquarist will be at the mercy of the ' Lobang King '. There will only be a handful of people who will benefit and new comer will be few and far between. This pool will be stagnant........and will dry up.